Ben Shapiro challenged California Gov. Gavin Newsom during a tense exchange on the governor’s podcast, This Is Gavin Newsom, calling him out for repeatedly refusing to answer a basic question at the center of the national debate over gender ideology: whether a boy can become a girl.
The moment came after Newsom dismissed claims by President Donald Trump that surgeries are being performed on children at schools. Shapiro conceded that point but countered that children are being socially transitioned without their parents’ knowledge, arguing that this reality still raises serious concerns. From there, Shapiro sought to cut through the politics and get to what he described as the root issue.
Shapiro directly asked whether boys can become girls, a question Newsom repeatedly sidestepped. The governor responded with vague expressions of sympathy and references to compassion, invoking “the grace of God” and suggesting that people struggling with gender identity deserve understanding. But he stopped short of giving a clear yes or no.
As Shapiro pressed further, he expressed frustration that such a straightforward biological question had become difficult for elected leaders to answer. Newsom, for his part, suggested that the issue’s political potency was driving the debate and emphasized that only a small number of people are affected. He argued that many individuals who struggle with gender identity go on to live successful lives and complained that the discussion is often fueled by what he described as hate, bigotry, and judgment.
That framing drew a firm objection from Shapiro, who pushed back against the idea that stating biological reality amounts to bigotry. He argued that it is not hateful to say that a boy cannot become a girl, nor is it unreasonable to oppose teaching that concept to children in K–12 public schools. Shapiro described his position as rooted in rationality and basic biology, not animus toward individuals.
Newsom responded by saying he respected Shapiro’s point of view and acknowledged that good people disagree on the issue. When Shapiro followed up by asking whether the state itself shares that respect, Newsom pointed to long-standing policies in California and other states, emphasizing that many of the rules governing these issues predate his tenure. He said he had not built his political career around advocating for these policies, despite claims to the contrary.
The governor also referenced Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, echoing Cox’s remark that an extraordinary amount of attention has been placed on a very small number of people. Shapiro countered that, politically, insisting that boys can become girls creates a barrier for many voters who might otherwise be open to listening on other issues.
Newsom acknowledged that reality, saying he respected that such views could be a deal-breaker for some voters. Still, Shapiro returned to his core frustration, saying it was strange that even if policymakers pursue certain public policies, they seem unwilling to admit that boys and girls are fundamentally different and that one cannot become the other.
In closing, Newsom reiterated that he understood Shapiro’s perspective and added that he respects individuals such as Caitlyn Jenner. Shapiro agreed that respect for individuals is important, while making clear that acknowledging personal dignity does not require abandoning biological reality.
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